Picture of Matt Leathes
Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Monday, 27 February 2017, 6:04 PM
 

As I'm sure most of you are all-too-aware, Microsoft stopped supporting every developer's favourite browser - Internet Explorer v8 - more than a year ago now.

Furthermore, support for Windows Vista ends in April this year - leaving Windows Server 2008 R2 as the only operating system that continues to support Internet Explorer v9.

Internet Explorer v10 has only been supported on Windows Server 2012 and Windows Embedded 8 Standard (no, I have no idea what this is either!) for a year now.

So, as from April, IE9 and 10 support is only really likely to be needed for organisations using a thin-client setup that is running on relatively old Windows Server technology.

So, now seems a good point to start a discussion about browser support in the Adapt Open Source project.

There are strong arguments for moving away from developing for these barely-/un-supported browsers, not least of which is that Adapt uses many third-party libraries - some of which have already stopping supporting IE8 (the MediaElement player used in adapt-contrib-media, for example). Others will doubtless follow suit, leaving us dealing with problems like this.

The other factor to consider is that, as an open source project that relies on a lot of donated time by developers, it's important that the project is enjoyable to work on - and for most developers having to support browsers like IE8 is pretty much the opposite of enjoyable ;-)

Finally, having to support these old browsers means that a lot of functionality that could be very useful is either completely unavailable to us or can only be achieved by means of clunky workarounds, fall-backs or graceful degradation.

On the other side of the argument, we need to bear in mind the nature of the e-learning market - it frequently involves producing courses for organisations of considerable size for whom upgrading can be an immense task - and so some of whom still require support for IE8.

And we do realise that, for some of you, one of the attractions of Adapt is that it's one of the few e-learning tools out there that still supports IE8 without having to rely completely on Adobe Flash.

The plan we'd like to propose, therefore, is that we stop developing for some/all of these older browsers but continue supporting a version of Adapt that is compatible with them.

What this means in practice is that when we switch to developing v3 of the Adapt Framework and core plugins we will not include support for IE8 (or IE9 and 10, ideally) - but will continue to make v2 of the Adapt Framework and core plugins available - and, where possible, will continue fixing any bugs found in that version.

For those of you working directly with the Framework, we plan to look into how we can set up the Adapt CLI to make it easy to get hold of the v2 Framework and plugins.

For anyone working with the Authoring Tool, this could be more of a problem since you can't have multiple versions of the framework/plugins installed on the AT. You also can't upgrade your AT install without also upgrading the framework. This would therefore mean any AT users who need to support IE8 having to maintain a copy of the AT specifically for that purpose.

At this point we're really just trying to get an idea of what you think of this plan. In particularly we are looking for feedback from anyone still in the position of having to support IE8/9/10. Would all this be off-putting - or worse - a showstopper problem for you? Would you prefer we continued developing for IE9 & 10 in Adapt v3 and, if so, why would this be important to you?

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Monday, 6 March 2017, 10:53 AM
 

Just replying to this to trigger an update email - we had some issues with emails from adaptlearning.org being flagged as spam last week so if you didn't get to see this post last week please do have a read.

Picture of Gareth Walker
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Gareth Walker - Monday, 6 March 2017, 12:23 PM
 

Thanks for the summary Matt.

Would there be merit in putting together & sending out a short survey that asks the community a set of questions about the  browsers/devices/etc. they need to currently develop for, deliver Adapt courses on, and need to support?

(Might also cover a few additional things like LMS/VLEs, SCORM versions, and so on.)

It'll be a partial picture - but no more partial than forum responses, and maybe gives a bit more of a basis of info to work on.

 

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Monday, 6 March 2017, 12:43 PM
 

Hi Gareth

I think that would be an interesting thing to do but wouldn't really help answer this particular question, which is our immediate concern.

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Monday, 6 March 2017, 12:45 PM
 

Also wanted to note that Microsoft are now warning that IE9 and 10 are no longer supported for some of their products - SharePoint online for example:

users that use earlier versions of Internet Explorer will start to see more "diminished experiences", and sometimes functionality will be completely broken
Picture of Ryan Olds
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Ryan Olds - Monday, 6 March 2017, 5:44 PM
 

Do not forget that unsupported browsers are not receiving security updates and there are unpatched CVE's for many of these out-of-date browsers. In my opinion, no one should be supporting software that is no longer receiving security updates - be it an OS, library, application (including browsers).

As members of the software industry it's our responsibility to follow best practices and do what is best for the the internet and users. We should not be supporting dysfunctional IT staff that have chosen to use software past it's EOL. They had plenty of notice from Microsoft and the EOL of XP and IE8 were not a surprise.

Any browser not currently receiving security updates from it's developers should have support discontinued immediately.

Picture of Joe Wickert
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Joe Wickert - Tuesday, 7 March 2017, 5:19 AM
 

As the person who reported the issue you quoted, I'd much rather have WCAG compliance for modern browsers over IE 8/9/10 support.

In Australia WCAG AA is a Legislated requirement for any Govt. web-based content, which is a big potential market for Adapt projects. Pretty sure IE8 support isn't required by law (hope not!).

Big governments and companies just shouldn't be using insecure/unsupported browsers.

I think we should be up front and say you can have WCAG AA/html5 or iIE8/9/10 not both.

Would projects not work at all in IE8/9/10? Or still sort of work/but just not be supported?

Could we put a message up warning users when they access with old browsers?

Must Govt clients I have seem to have chrome installed as well as IE these days.

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Tuesday, 7 March 2017, 10:32 AM
 
I think we should be up front and say you can have WCAG AA/html5 or iIE8/9/10 not both.

The only problem is that you CAN have that - not HTML5 and IE8 - but WCAG AA accessibility in IE8/9/10. We've got that already.

Would projects not work at all in IE8/9/10? Or still sort of work/but just not be supported?

In terms of the framework, I think we would likely break IE8 support immediately by dropping JQuery v1 (this is loaded instead of JQuery v2 when IE8 is used). Other than that, we don't have a plan of action as yet as didn't want to go too far down this route until we got some feedback from the community.

Could we put a message up warning users when they access with old browsers?

Absolutely, there's already a plugin available to handle that: adapt-IE-check.

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Thursday, 9 March 2017, 8:19 PM
 

Ah I see what you're saying about WCAG compliance now - I'd forgotten that the issue you logged was about this not working properly in the media component in the latest version of Safari.

Picture of Tom Taylor
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Tom Taylor - Tuesday, 7 March 2017, 9:14 AM
 

Big thumbs up from me.

Legacy browser support is now seriously holding us back when it comes to taking Adapt to the next level. v3 seems the ideal opportunity to do this, and skim off the legacy hacks we've been stockpiling over the last few years.

Picture of sarveshwar gavhane
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by sarveshwar gavhane - Tuesday, 7 March 2017, 12:23 PM
 

That's fine plan for V2 as well as V3 .

Whole-heartedly agree! Go ahead.

Picture of R LetItHappen
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by R LetItHappen - Tuesday, 7 March 2017, 7:55 PM
 

I agree. We know some organizations still using IE8, but none using Adapt and for the ones that use it, V2 and some workarounds like the adapt-IE-Check will have to be enough.

I think you should not support the effort of developing for IE8 to IE10 on V3. You will need most of the developing time available to keep evolving Adapt, only fixing critical bugs for V2 and for a period limited in time (dependent on the feedback of community elements with showstopper issues).

IE8 can't live forever ;).

 

 

 

 

 

Picture of Oliver Foster
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Oliver Foster - Thursday, 9 March 2017, 10:45 AM
 

I agree that we should push ie8+9+10 to bug support only.

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Wednesday, 22 March 2017, 3:25 PM
 

Last call for any further comments on this topic!

Picture of aaron quinn
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by aaron quinn - Wednesday, 22 March 2017, 8:38 PM
 

i'd like to have a new version that allows more cool stuff, so we can make more cool things, so people will want to upgrade their old browsers. old browsers don't deserve coolness anyway, so a fallback version should be good enough.

Picture of Henrik Aabom
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Henrik Aabom - Thursday, 23 March 2017, 7:08 AM
 

We are onboard as well and exited. It's about time we say goodbey to IE... almost anyway ;) 

Picture of Thomas Berger
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Thomas Berger - Thursday, 23 March 2017, 8:04 AM
 

I think it is important to maintain a Version of the Framework that receives future bug fixes and supports older Versions of IE (at least for IE 9/10). For future development however legacy browser support is limiting our possibilities and productivity. Therefore I think we should stop supporting legacy Versions of IE.

I think this approach makes Adapt extremely attractive. One base Version that works with older browsers (for whatever reason) and a new and shiny version with all the awesome possibilities available in modern web browsers.

Picture of Alecia Vogel
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Alecia Vogel - Thursday, 20 April 2017, 2:13 PM
 

A lot of our clients are government organizations. Sadly, a lot of them are still requesting IE8 on non-Adapt projects... and that may not change once they're pitched Adapt. :(

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Thursday, 20 April 2017, 3:01 PM
 

Quite a few people who use Adapt are in the same position. Question is: would the proposed way forward be acceptable? i.e. There will still be a version of Adapt that has IE8 support, we just won't be developing it any further. A similar approach to that used by JQuery and others.

Picture of Paul Arrighi
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Paul Arrighi - Friday, 21 April 2017, 12:10 AM
 

Supporting older IE browsers is as suggested problematic.  

From a customer/UI perspective could the new version include the capability of informing a user that their browser is no longer supported with a message that is a little more sophisticated than asking them to contact their administrator...

Picture of Matt Leathes
Re: Important question regarding support for old browsers... please read.
by Matt Leathes - Monday, 24 April 2017, 9:13 AM
 

This functionality is already handled by the IE-Check extension.

The only downside of this is that all the settings and messages are hard-coded into the JavaScript; this is because it needs to be able to operate even if the browser is not capable of running Adapt; so it should still work if the user is running IE7 or IE8 in 'quirks mode'.